Official Luthiers Forum!

What you say here is true Jeremy, but good questions to the designer tend to lead to better results. As for Taylor thinning the outside edge, his method may be new (but I don't think so) but the process certainly isn't. Most of the fine old classicals have had their tops thinned at the edge and actually across the whole top with the bridge area the thickest. So at least Bob Taylor was just trying to replecate an old successful, hand built tradition into a process driven environment, no secret potions, just modernized processes, agin...IMHO.

I agree, it is fun to read these types of threads (sorry Serge I had to borrow your buddy for a bit!)

Shane

_________________
Canada

Hey i'm having as much fun with this one too ya know=>>>>>>

I have doubts as to the viability of this process but understand what they are trying to accomplish. For the moment rather than being skeptical I am just trying to get past the hyperbole and understand what the process is actually doing.

A long time ago (the 70's) I wanted to be a luthier that built a little a bit of everything with strings. Others like Alan Carruth have done so which is to be much admired. I have built a couple lutes, violins, a few cellos, a couple archtops, you name it until I settled on classical guitars (with some flamenco's).

I read all of the literature on voicing, secret varnish recipes and the like can like sacconi tried waterglass. It sounded like it made sense but my results were unconclusive to ineffective and not worth the effort.

At one point I tried a wood stabilizer on a guitar that was solvent base with a high amount of polymerizing resins that soak into the grain of the wood and then harden in the porous cells leaving the wood more affected by weather, much less prone to cracking and hopefully enhance the tone.

The wood stabilizer is used in production furniture factories to help to minimize wood movement by partially sealing which reduces the moisture to air exchange. It works as promised for the application it is intended for...so how did it work on my guitar?

The wood stabilizer I applied to the inside of the guitar just in the same way that the Josepi process does. The wood stabilizer liquid will soak into end grain up to one inch and on surface grain to about 1/4 inch. After about 15 minutes I would wipe up any standing liquid and the surface would look dry but cool (damp) to the touch much like wood feels after you apply an oil finish. At that point because the polymerizing resins in solution air cure the solvent in the stabilizer would then outgas until all of the resin is dry within the pores of the wood. The drying process would take one to two days.

A couple of gotcha's...

The solvent dissolved the natural oils and resins in the wood it is applied to so while the surface appeared wet after a couple of hours what in fact had happened was that dissolved oils and resins in the wood were rising to the surface and if not wiped off would crust over.

Note that the guitar was a redwood top with BRW sides and back. The stabilizer soaked and cured in the top quickly but in the case of rosewood or other tropical hardwoods with a high amount of oils and resin in the wood it would take forever to cure. After 2 weeks I was sure that there was nothing left in the BRW that could leach out but each day I was wiping it down again. After 3 weeks I declared it dry as it no longer felt cool to the touch.

The guitar had been strung before but had not been finished. I strung up the guitar hoping to get a sound that was better than it was before when I had played it unfinished. When I started to play it immediately I was shocked to hear not a resonant booming sound but rather a very tiny muffled sound, no matter how hard I strummed.

What had happened was that the wood stabilizer was not fully cured and instead of crystalizing the tone instead was a massive damper. I was bummed and chalked it up to a hard lesson but because the guitar was not for a customer I held on to it but put it in a corner. Every couple of months I would pick it up hoping for a dramatic improvement...in the end it took nearly 10 months before the stabilizer was fully cured so at that point I had accomplished the same or similar thing as flooding it with CA.

Once it had finally fully cured the guitar did sound as good as it had before I applied the stabilizer, maybe even a little better but not at the price of waiting. Also because it had been so long since I had heard it in its original state that it really wasnt a good comparison.

Upon further playing the sound did open up but what the "perceived" improvement really was is that it had made the sound more fundamental so the sound was more "focused" but not as rich (less overtones) at least to my hearing.

Not to be meant as a slam against guitars like Smallman's but for me the net was what I hear when I listen to a Smallman it can be a cannon with lots of projection but the sound is tinny and not the full tone I would expect from a more traditional classical guitar.

Would I try it again...probably not although I have used the wood stabilizer on bow blanks in an effort to minimize the reject rate I was getting from a marginal batch of pernambuco.

I would be willing to bet that they have tried the same solution I used or a variant of it. Note that the curing issues I had with rosewoods and ebonies would be much less on a violin that is made from spruce and maple in that neither have the high concentration of organic solids that would dissolve and leach.

I have intentionally not mentioned the name of the widely used wood stabilizer in that I am not recommending this to anyone but for those that are curious the product can be found by searching for "Nelsonite".

I would put this "magic" solution in the same category as many other lutherie experiments in which builders are always striving to get a bigger or better sound whether it be Kramer aluminum necked electrics, Maccaferri "plastic" guitars, or Nomex sandwich top guitars...only time will tell what innovations are an advance.

Great post Shawn. I still haven't heard back from the Emails I sent and the website claims that you WILL here back within 48 hours. Times up!

But the point is that this process supposedly adds no mass to the wood, and a product like Nelsonite (which I'm familiar with...) surely must add mass as you are soaking the wood with a chemical and/or resin that stays behind, closing up the pores so moisture exchange can't happen as readily.   One of the main claims is that the Josepi Process doesn't change the mass of the wood.   Hence I conclude that it's some kind of oxydizing gas that alters the surface of the interior wood.   If one saw a before and after and noted any change in the wood color, that might indicate an oxydizing process.   Whatever it is has to have an effect on the strength or stiffness of the wood without adding anything.   I suspect that can only be either something that helps crystalize resins already in the wood or breaks down the sugars locked in the wood which is what ozone would tend to do.   Remember that all you have to do is change a very little bit of the surface of the wood to make a fairly big change in the modulus of elasticity.   Stiffness is all near the surfaces of plates or beams; that's just basic engineering.   Change the surface a little, change the plate a lot.

Because I build classicals where the quest is always more projection and volume without sacrificing tone, I am really curious if this works.

I think the oxiding gas makes perfect sense but what I am trying to understand is that the description says:

The "Josepi Process" — named after Carlson — is the patented process of applying binding chemicals to the sound box of average violas, violins and cellos to make them sound better.

It is the binding chemicals that made me think of Nelsonite. A composite idea would be some type of solution that could be dispersed on the surface of the inside of an instrument which then could be activated/cured by a oxidizing gas. There is a mention of it involving increasing the surface tension in the wood. It really sounds like some combination of a surface chemical that is oxided either by air or oxone that increases the surface hardness.

I also sent him email specifically asking about applicability for classical guitars since this should be more telling due the lower string tension and vibration than a steel string. Offered to send either a guitar "in the white" or in any state of finish. I will post what I get back.

    The more I learn about these "findings and discoveries" I liken this to Keebler wanting us to think there is a hollow tree with elves making cookies .
John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars

John, right you are.   A real finding or discovery would be accompanied by a patent, one would think.   And if so, then it becomes public knowledge. If this is as good as claimed, I would think that Josepi would want to license the process to as many violin makers as possible and reap a small fortune...or a big one...in royalties for the 17 years a patent is valid.   As a "trade secret", he's likely not to be able to really make much on this.   And as smoke and mirrors, it's a deal that will be forgotten in five months.   We'll see.

I still don't know how one could add something to the wood without changing it's mass.   That's not physics in this particular universe. You could do something that would change the surface or even the pore walls of the wood via a catalytic or other chemical change without adding mass.   It would be like an accellerated crystalization of the resins or sugars in the wood.

I suppose I'm writing these words and adding them to the surface appearance of all of your computers and not changing the mass of your screens, but now I'm getting all psychedelic about this.   Gotta stop thinking about the '60s...

Wait a second...you mean there arent Keeblers making cookies in hollow trees Oh wait, you mistook Keeblers for Elves...Elves cant bake

Regarding a patent for the process...I did both a trademark search (there is none pending or submitted) and a patent search (none applied for, or pending). I searched in both the names of the inventor (Carlson) and the collaborator (Hakonson) as well as any related submissions for either but found nothing.

That doesnt mean that they are not pursuing it, just that there is nothing at the moment.

Elves has left the building...Oh, that's Elvis! There's also the Mexican Elvis impersonator El Vez!

[QUOTE=Rick Turner]I still don't know how one could add something to the wood without changing it's mass.[/QUOTE]
Rick, considering that this claim hasn't been evaluated by any academic or governmental body, I think we may have to consider that what they really mean is "appreciable mass." That would open up many possibilities, including shallac, thin epoxy, CA, etc. Really, it could be any kind of thin finish or coating.

[QUOTE]i think its made of something like

50% BS
25% Hot Air
25% Vinegar [/QUOTE]

I'll have to try this, I seem to have all that already here! That's funny!

There's sometime people use disinformation to steer the interested, in other directions. Sounds like something like this. Again there are all kinds of different ideas about what sounds good or goofy.

    There is a possiblity of using CA fumes to permeate the wood but this is a stretch and, no, I don't know anything about it!

_________________
Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

The turd doesn't fall too far from the bull...

There have been a lot of wood treatments that have been tried on violins over the years, and some of them would not add any detectable mass. Two I can think of are ozone and nitrous oxide. I'm not sure of what the ozone is supposed to do; perhaps it's just to darken the wood and make it look older. Nitrous oxide would change some of the cellulose into nitrocellulose, and that might be stiffer and stronger than the original material.

The problem with both of these, as I understand it, is that they are disasters over the long term. Whenever the subject of either comes up on the violin makers lists people start talking about wood in hundred year old instruments that crumbles to dust. Certainly nitro is chemically unstable; that's why those old finishes are so thin and crazed, and turn orange.

There's no evidence that the Josepi process is either of these, but none that it is not, either. Perhaps they've come up with something that really does what they say, and does it harmlessly. Again, if that's the case, it will take over the world, and the guy will be as rich as he wants to be. Why am I not impressed with the likelihood?   

Nitrous Oxide?...I would think it would help to increases the instruments sense of humor, make it go faster or leave it feeling whipped

Nitrous Oxide is sometimes refered to as "laughing gas"

Nitrous Oxide
COMMON & BRAND NAMES: Laughing Gas; Whippet Cartridges; Hippy Crack; N2O

EFFECTS CLASSIFICATION: Dissociative Anaesthetic Gas

CHEMICAL NAME: nitrous oxide

DESCRIPTION:
Nitrous Oxide is an aesthetic gas best known for its use in dentistry and as a whipped cream propellant. It is widely available and its effects are short lasting. Non-food grade Nitrous Oxide gas is used in automobile racing and rocket engines.

Al,

I think you meant to say nitrogen dioxide (NO2), which could conceivably nitrate cellose, since this is in effect what you get when you mix sulfuric acid with nitric acid (standard procedure for nitration reactions). I am an organic chemist and I don't believe nitrous oxide (N2O) could nitrate cellulose. If it did, could you imagine what it would do to whipped cream and your lungs. If they are in fact using nitrous oxide, I don't think it would do much, if anything, to the wood. Ozone on the other hand is an extremely reactive oxidant. I've done chemical reactions with ozone and it disentegrates rubber septa in seconds. I am not famiiliar with violin practices, athough my daughter plays one.

Randy

_________________
Randy Muth
RS Muth Guitars Website
RS Muth Guitars Blog
Facebook Fan Page

[QUOTE=Shawn] DESCRIPTION:
Nitrous Oxide is an aesthetic gas best known for its use in dentistry and as a whipped cream propellant. [/QUOTE]
Oh no!! Now all the kids will be huffing Ready Whip!

Carlton, kids have been huffing Ready Whip for years. Look at the back of the Safeway late on a Saturday night. It's true!   

The Jefferson Airplane had a whole room set up with a manifolded hose system that mixed nitrous and oxygen (so you wouldn't die...) and delivered the mix to a bunch of vinyl tubes.   Six or seven people could get high on the stuff at once.   The only problem was that the tanks would freeze from the gas going out so fast.   

Appearantly the builder of Roch guitars {pronounced rock} on Saltspring Island BC does some sort of process to his acoustic guitars tops whereby he sort of plasticizes the wood - at least thats what it sounded like to me when it was explained to me.
   I played the guitars, and they sounded dead and lifeless to me very bass-y................
I saw a picture of Melissa Etheridge playing one - but she sounds lifeless to me too.
But thats just my opinion - mabye this is sort of the same thing as what your talking about with this process above. I'll look into it, on second thought I think I wont.
Cheers
Charliecharliewood38807.8971180556

Hi. I am new to this forum but have been reading it for a few months and a working on my first acoustic guitar from a blues creek kit. This topic is very interesting to me and brought something mind. I recently built a custom cabinet out of cherry for a friend who wanted me to stain it, which I hate to do. Instead I used an oxidizing process I'd heard of that makes the cherry look old. It involves spraying it with Easy-Off, whose active ingredient is lye. This probably has nothing to do with the Josepi process but I thought it might be interesting to bring up and see if anyone had any opinions about it possibly doing something to tone. Maybe I should just stick to snake oil for my first guitar though.nickton38808.0962152778

_________________
"Preoccupation with an effect gives it power and enhances the error"
from "Your Owner's Manual" by Burt Hotchkiss.

I've used nitrous before, but it was on a small block
Ford motor in a '66 Mustang.
Made it go fast!

[QUOTE=tippie53]     The more I learn about these "findings and discoveries" I liken this to Keebler wanting us to think there is a hollow tree with elves making cookies .
John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars[/QUOTE]

There is, but I think they had to sell it and move to a more normal facility after the company went public.   

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Rick Turner] Carlton, kids have been huffing Ready Whip for years. [/QUOTE]
Good Grief!!!    I've always been too naive about that stuff. Guess it's a good thing I don't have any children. On the other hand, I guess OLF-ers will be the first to know what's really going on when large numbers of kids start begging their parents for violins--Josepi-Huffing!

muthrs:
You're probably right: NOx. One treatment involved fuming with horse manure. Some people use a 'spark box', but there are differences of opinion as to what that puts out; NOx or ozone. Maybe both. It's been a long time since I did any real chemistry.

Lye as an 'aging' process has been used for a long time, particularly on cherry wood. Better than 'Easy Off' would be home made lye. Get some hardwood ashes, put them in a collander lined with cheescloth, and pour _cold_ water through. The lye will cause the water to heat up as it goes into solution, and if you start with hot water you might have exciting times for a short while! Use plenty of water: you only need it strong enough to feel a little 'soapy'. More applications will darken the wood more. All of the different light-metal hydroxides you get from ashes seem to make for a better color.

Alan:

   This nitrocellulose, isn't it explosive? Like gun cotton? You could be playing "Orange Blossom Special" and Kablooie! Sounds dangerous to me!

I guess were all going to die anyway why not while playing a violin!

_________________
Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)